Trade Rumors and Discussion

[rocky_rams]

4 hours ago, Forge said:

Nobody said that he wasn't. I've basically said that he's not top 5 and that he's in the same tier of receivers as guys like Allen Robinson and others. That's not insulting and it sure as hell isn't nonsense 

 

Keenan is def arguably top 5. I have him over guys like Davante Adams and Amari Cooper. He hasn’t had good QB play around him, til now it seems like 

If he was on a team like the packers, he would perennially top 3-5

Edited October 17, 2020 by rocky_rams

[Forge]

1 hour ago, rocky_rams said:

He hasn’t had good QB play around him, til now it seems like 

Yeah, no way Robinson knows what that's like

You want to put him in your top five, more power to you. I view Allen similarly to other talented receivers in the league with no clear factor that differentiates them. 

I would vehemently argue against the idea that its crazy or unreasonable to feel that way

[rocky_rams]

55 minutes ago, Forge said:

Yeah, no way Robinson knows what that's like

You want to put him in your top five, more power to you. I view Allen similarly to other talented receivers in the league with no clear factor that differentiates them. 

I would vehemently argue against the idea that its crazy or unreasonable to feel that way

Yeah but Allen is a much better route runner and has better hands than Robinson. 

I get your point though. But there is a big difference between Keenan Allen and Allen Robinson 

[Forge]

2 hours ago, rocky_rams said:

Yeah but Allen is a much better route runner and has better hands than Robinson. 

I get your point though. But there is a big difference between Keenan Allen and Allen Robinson 

1) that's subjective. I'm inclined to agree, but it is something that can't really be quantified, and how much it matters is very questionable (see point #2)

2) Being those two things doesn't really make you a better receiver. I mean, it does, but it doesn't...if you know what i mean lol. Sometimes, you just have to be bigger and stronger and faster that's all that matters. TO did not have a good hands. TO wasn't a beast of a route runner. Yet he's arguably one of the best three receivers of all time.   Does anyone truly think that Mike Evans is a technically proficient receiver? He's probably underrated, but he's not Allen. But up to this point there's really not any justification for selecting Allen over Evans given what they have done on the field.

I think you could make an argument that Stefon Diggs has a claim as arguably the best route runner in football. I would not take Diggs over Allen (though the range is comparable). 

Having better hands and being a better route runner is good...but so is being faster, stronger, and having a higher vertical jump. 

3) I don't know that I'd say a big difference. There's nothing that supports that there is a big difference between Allen and a lot of people, which is kind of my point. Thielen had an awful year last year, but at this point I think it's fair to say that was an outlier more than anything and he's been similar. Brandin Cooks' 4 years between 15-18 were right on par with what Allen does from a productivity stand point (different types of receivers, obviously), but I never heard anyone throwing "top 5 receiver" at him.

What about the young guys? Golladay? Different type of receiver, but a beast nonetheless. Godwin or Ridley? Kupp? Kupps career lines up fairly well when you consider what he's done after his rookie year. The main point I'm trying to make is that he's closer to these type of guys than he is the elite studs of today and yesteryear. 

What people are going to say is "oh, clearly you don't watch". The case for Allen in a lot of this is going to be "eye test", and I don't necessarily disagree with that (I am using it to with a guy like Robinson, who I view as considerably better than his actual statistics have allowed for at this point, and I do 100% think that there is still some value to the eyes, though it's subjective), and a lot of these guys I wouldn't consider better than allen even if the statistics were similar, but at some point, what actually happens on the field matters. So unless you are weighing a subjective metric like hands / route running extremely heavily for some reason when it comes to who you would pick for one game if you needed a receiver (and I'd just as happily take the athletic freaks who produce at a similar clip) there's a lot of overlap with some of these guys. 

You want a really fun one? 

Player A for 2018-2020

36 games, 199 catches on 300 targets (5.53 rec / g). 7 drops (2.3%). 2653 receiving yards + 337 rushing yards for a total of 2990 yards from scrimmage (83.06 yards per game). 13 touchdowns (.36 td/g). 5.95 YAC / R. 

Player B for 2018 - 2020

37 games, 235 catches on 335 targets (6.35 rec / g). 11 drops (3.3%). 2751 receiving yards + 91 rushing yards. Total 2842 YFS (76.81 / g). 14 touchdowns (.38 td/g). 3.96 YAC / R

Now, just to pull some other stuff. QBs? In 2020, 77.4% of Player A's targets were deemed catchable. In 2019, it was 72.1%. Player B? 2020, 72.5%. 2019, 84% Player A's team threw the ball 1352 times over that time period. Player B's team threw the ball 1280. 

Player A is also considered to be one of the best blocking wide receivers in football..which, if we are going to talk route running and "hands", has to come into play at some point, even if you don't weigh it heavily. 

Player A is Robert Woods. Player B is Keenan Allen. 

Now, Bobby Trees has been woefully underrated the last few years, so this is not to denigrate Allen by saying "oh see, the lowly Robert Woods is similar". But how many are putting him top 5? Its just that there are a lot of people who have performed comparable the last couple of years. If you want to include 2017, yes, that group does thin out, but the further away from present day you get, the less meaningful it is as well, I'd argue, and that's before considering that it does also exclude people as well. 

For me there's a big group of guys that all just fit into the same bucket. You can group them how you want in that tier. If you want to put Allen at the top of that tier, I won't fight anyone about that...perfectly fair. 

I don't expect everyone to have my same opinion and view the same guys as higher. Some don't like Mike Evans. I get that. Some may not want to do that with Hill for sure. I'd get that too. You said you have him above Adams, and I think that's crazy (though in the interest of full disclosure, I'm talking about 1 game, fully healthy, which do you want ...if you're dinging Adams for full, long term health, I completely get it since the guy can't stay healthy).  

There was one mistake I made, I will admit. Keenan Allen has been a remarkably consistent performer the last few years as he's been healthy. And I'm not going to knock that at all. A lot of these other guys who I view comparable or even better, have not been able to stay healthy, so that is to his credit. But he's simply not top 5 to me, and he's not substantially better than a whole host of guys. I don't believe that is a mistake, saying that. The mistake was probably singling him out as opposed to Cooper, who signed his deal first. Cooper is another of those guys that I view in the same range as Allen, so he technically broke that market before Allen, and I should have said if Cooper can get 20, Arob should be able to get it too. 

[Bearerofnews]

9 hours ago, SkippyX said:

To be clear, when I quote something its never about the person, its about the ongoing discussion or the positions taken.

Keenan Allen is a good player.

Cultists who worship Keenan Allen are just sad.

As you say, he's not that special.

I just showed you numbers that says he is special since 2017 going up against the best wr's in the game. Allen Robinson isnt even in the same stratosphere by any stretch, no matter how much you try to inflate the stats or adjust the parameters. This isnt even a real argument. Stop it. You will be laughed out of every scouting room and GM room trying to make that asinine argument.

Allen Robinson vs Keenan Allen... is this guy being serious?

Keenan is the best route runner, the best 3rd down wr and has sure hands. But go on with the "not special" narrative. It's a losing one.

Edited October 17, 2020 by Bearerofnews

[Bearerofnews]

6 hours ago, SkippyX said:

One of the 15-20 best... just like Edelman.

• He is 19th in yards and T-23rd in TDs this year
• He was 6th in yards and T-24th in TDs last year
• He was 15th in yards and T-25th in TDs in 2018
• He was 3rd and T-26th in 2017 (oh look, I found a top 10 year!)

He has led the league in catches, average per catch, yards, yards per game, or TDs exactly never!

Pro Football Reference tracks the top 261 WRs in yards per catch and 250-261 are at 14.4 per catch.

• Keenan Allen is at 12.1
• Antonio Gates was at 12.4

There have been 259 player seasons with 11 or more TDs and who knows how many more at 9 or 10 (another 150-200 maybe?)

• None of those seasons were Keenan Allen (and he only topped 6 once!)

His one trick is volume and he is 14th all time in yards per game (74.2), but 9th among active qualified players.

• Some of the people below him, like Fitz (74.4) were ahead of him through 8 seasons.

 

But he has moxie! And he's my special Fantasy Football friend! So he's elite!

 

Talk about the worst possible example of cherry picked absolutely irrelevant stats. You trying hard and failing badly. I showed the stats for past 3 years. His numbers are top 5 across the board. You have yet come close to arguing otherwise, when comparing his overall numbers vs "universally considered" top 5.

K Allen is no lower than 7. Allen Robinson is lucky if he is top 15. Stop this dumb argument, you wont win it. Sometimes you have to find a different hill.

 

Unless you can actually make a real argument with anything REMOTELY substantial. 

Keenan has 1 season under 64% catch rate. Allen has had 1 season at or above 64%. 

Last 4 seasons for Robinson with more than 1 reception in a season his weighted avg catch rate is 57% and Allen is at 68%. 

Keenan has avg 100 receptions 1200 yds and 6 tds with a 68% catch rate past 3 full seasons

Since 2017, Keenan is 4th amongst all WRs in yds. 3rd in receptions, 6th in catch rate amongst WRs, 12th in tds.  Why am i entertaining this lunacy.. anyone?

Edited October 17, 2020 by Bearerofnews

[jrry32]

11 hours ago, BayRaider said:

The Jets first mistake is using him in a 3-4 scheme. QW was born to play 4-3 DT like he did at Alabama, arguably having the greatest DT season in college football history. The man simply cannot be blocked one on one. 

Dude.

[BayRaider]

7 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Dude.

What? I do think his season is slightly more impressive than Donald’s if you watch the tape, plus QW played in the SEC. The guy was literally unblockable on film analysis. Huge fan of both coming out of college though. Mack and Donald were my Top 3 that entire draft.

[Forge]

Just now, BayRaider said:

What? I do think his season is slightly more impressive than Donald’s if you watch the tape, plus QW played in the SEC. The guy was literally unblockable on film analysis. Huge fan of both coming out of college though. Mack and Donald were my Top 3 that entire draft.

I always go back to suh , personally. But I don't know if he's excluded

[jrry32]

11 minutes ago, BayRaider said:

What? I do think his season is slightly more impressive than Donald’s if you watch the tape, plus QW played in the SEC. The guy was literally unblockable on film analysis. Huge fan of both coming out of college though. Mack and Donald were my Top 3 that entire draft.

Donald played on a defense with very little other talent and posted significantly better numbers. And he was also unblockable one on one. Hell, he was able to eat up double teams too. The best I saw were Donald and Suh. QW wasn't quite on that level.

[eagles18]

12 hours ago, rocky_rams said:

Keenan is def arguably top 5. I have him over guys like Davante Adams and Amari Cooper. He hasn’t had good QB play around him, til now it seems like 

If he was on a team like the packers, he would perennially top 3-5

having him over adams is a mistake..

[Trojan]

Glenn Dorsey was a beast in LSU his final season too if you are looking for a great prospect that happened to not turn into Suh and Donald lol.

- SEC Defensive Player of the Year? Sure did.
- National Championship? Yes.
- Outland Trophy (best college football interior lineman)? Yup.
- Nagurski Trophy (best college defender)? Uh huh.
- Lott Trophy (Integrity, Maturity, Performance, Academics, Community, and Tenacity)? He did.
-  Lombardi Award (best college player, offense or defense, focused on performance, as well as leadership, character, and resiliency)? You bet.
 

 

[rocky_rams]

1 hour ago, eagles18 said:

having him over adams is a mistake..

How so? What does Adams do better than Allen? Only reason people are saying that is because Adams has the most accurate QB in history throwing to him. That helps you know

Side note: Adams said that he’d choose Keenan Allen over any wr in the league to play on the Packers 

Edited October 17, 2020 by rocky_rams

[SteelKing728]

10 hours ago, jrry32 said:

Dude.

Yep. Donald dominated at every level. H2P!

[DannyB]

wait did somebody say Keenan Allen has never had a good quarterback until now? haha! this forum is ridiculous