The Carr dilemma in 2021

[jimkelly02]

On 1/19/2021 at 12:22 PM, bucksavage1 said:

Every year there is a franchise level QB that gets drafted to a team. Sometimes 2

The only people out of their mind are wanting to bring back a QB for an 8th season who has led us to 6 losing seasons out of 7 years. Consistently blaming other parts of the team and with blind optimism that this QB can suddenly lead us to a super bowl or even to the playoffs

The moment someone starts talking in hyperbole and with slander against the opposing thought they’ve already lost the discussion.  No one is out of their mind for wanting to keep Carr and not trade the 4 first round picks plus other picks to move up into the top 2-4 and get Wilson or Fields.  
 

again your blaming Carr for everything.  Outside of Mahomes and Rodgers how do you think the other “TOP QBs” like Wilson, Big Ben, etc would do with a WR core consisting of a broken down Jordy Nelson, Martavius Bryant, and Seth Roberts. Or a defense like we’ve had the last few years? 
 

Again I’ve absolutely refuted your argument with the simple statement we aren’t able to get a top 4 pick.... without trading an absurd and crippling draft haul...which is what we would need to get Wilson or Fields.  If we were naturally picking 2-4 we’d all be for drafting Fields/Wilson if after scouting them we thought they’d be a franchise QB.  But us crazies know that even if we land the next Mahomes it’s be a struggle to win with what we have let alone the deteriorating team that would result from years of no first and other high round picks.

furthermore, as I’ve said were just not accepting of the idea of moving on from Carr, a good QB at a great price, for the 3rd or 4th QB in a class.  Trey Lance, Tua, Jordan Love, etc could easily be the next Mitch Trubisky or Sam D’Arnold and if we traded Up for them it’d cripple us for 5 years.... like 5 years of 2-14 type cripple.

us “crazies” know what Carr is.  He’s been around a long time.  He’s a QB you can win with if your have a good team around him, but can’t pick up a 4-6 win team and make them 10,11 wins.  
 

I think it’s actually crazy to put the franchise future for the next decade in the hands of a 1yr small school QB like Lance and think that with significantly  less resources then Carr and no hope of building a solid defense that he’s going to be some HOF QB that miraculously leads us to the playoffs.

there’s a far better chance that if we fix the defense and let the offense develop we can be a playoff team.

I understand your passionate about moving on from Carr but there is no reason to talk bad about people Who disagree.  And I’m (absolutely not) sorry to tell you this but Carr will be the Raiders QB in ‘21.  Get over it and yourself.  
 

Btw.... exactly which QB do you want? And honestly what’s the cost of getting him?  These massive details always get left out Of the arguments by the anti-Carr side..... because it doesn’t suit their narrative.  They know the cost would be massive and the gamble would be insane, especially when It’s for the 3rd or 4th QB in a draft class.... players that are being artificially pumped up in the draft because of their position.

[NCOUGHMAN]

2 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

The moment someone starts talking in hyperbole and with slander against the opposing thought they’ve already lost the discussion.  No one is out of their mind for wanting to keep Carr and not trade the 4 first round picks plus other picks to move up into the top 2-4 and get Wilson or Fields.  
 

again your blaming Carr for everything.  Outside of Mahomes and Rodgers how do you think the other “TOP QBs” like Wilson, Big Ben, etc would do with a WR core consisting of a broken down Jordy Nelson, Martavius Bryant, and Seth Roberts. Or a defense like we’ve had the last few years? 
 

Again I’ve absolutely refuted your argument with the simple statement we aren’t able to get a top 4 pick.... without trading an absurd and crippling draft haul...which is what we would need to get Wilson or Fields.  If we were naturally picking 2-4 we’d all be for drafting Fields/Wilson if after scouting them we thought they’d be a franchise QB.  But us crazies know that even if we land the next Mahomes it’s be a struggle to win with what we have let alone the deteriorating team that would result from years of no first and other high round picks.

furthermore, as I’ve said were just not accepting of the idea of moving on from Carr, a good QB at a great price, for the 3rd or 4th QB in a class.  Trey Lance, Tua, Jordan Love, etc could easily be the next Mitch Trubisky or Sam D’Arnold and if we traded Up for them it’d cripple us for 5 years.... like 5 years of 2-14 type cripple.

us “crazies” know what Carr is.  He’s been around a long time.  He’s a QB you can win with if your have a good team around him, but can’t pick up a 4-6 win team and make them 10,11 wins.  
 

I think it’s actually crazy to put the franchise future for the next decade in the hands of a 1yr small school QB like Lance and think that with significantly  less resources then Carr and no hope of building a solid defense that he’s going to be some HOF QB that miraculously leads us to the playoffs.

there’s a far better chance that if we fix the defense and let the offense develop we can be a playoff team.

I understand your passionate about moving on from Carr but there is no reason to talk bad about people Who disagree.  And I’m (absolutely not) sorry to tell you this but Carr will be the Raiders QB in ‘21.  Get over it and yourself.  
 

Btw.... exactly which QB do you want? And honestly what’s the cost of getting him?  These massive details always get left out Of the arguments by the anti-Carr side..... because it doesn’t suit their narrative.  They know the cost would be massive and the gamble would be insane, especially when It’s for the 3rd or 4th QB in a draft class.... players that are being artificially pumped up in the draft because of their position.

So if you’re right it’s either 2-14 seasons for 5 years (let’s just say 4 wins to be fair) or
 

A) 20-60 record And 4 high first rounders

or

B) 32-46 with multiple middle first rounders (Carr’s actual first 5year record)

imo kinda crappy options but I’d choose option a And take my chances rolling the dice in the draft

[Geezy]

32 minutes ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

So if you’re right it’s either 2-14 seasons for 5 years (let’s just say 4 wins to be fair) or
 

A) 20-60 record And 4 high first rounders

or

B) 32-46 with multiple middle first rounders (Carr’s actual first 5year record)

imo kinda crappy options but I’d choose option a And take my chances rolling the dice in the draft

remember Carrs rookie year when his top options were 30 year old James Jones, Andre Holmes and Mychal Rivera lol and the defense had starters like Brandian Ross, Tarell Brown, Miles Burris and Sio Moore lol team started 0-10, lets put it on the 2nd round rookie who started day 1. 

[Justwinning]

7 minutes ago, Geezy said:

remember Carrs rookie year when his top options were 30 year old James Jones, Andre Holmes and Mychal Rivera lol and the defense had starters like Brandian Ross, Tarell Brown, Miles Burris and Sio Moore lol team started 0-10, lets put it on the 2nd round rookie who started day 1. 

They looooove putting that on Carr. They lack context when making their points.

[Jerry]

46 minutes ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

So if you’re right it’s either 2-14 seasons for 5 years (let’s just say 4 wins to be fair) or
 

A) 20-60 record And 4 high first rounders

or

B) 32-46 with multiple middle first rounders (Carr’s actual first 5year record)

imo kinda crappy options but I’d choose option a And take my chances rolling the dice in the draft

Derek Carr is at 37-43 over the last 5 seasons.  That 2018 season was a complete rebuild of a season too (4-12).  I'd rather have the last 5 years of almost .500 than a 20-60 record.  I really don't get how you would want 5 straight years of 4-12 instead of Derek Carr.  I just don't dont get the thought process here.

[oakdb36]

15 minutes ago, Jerry said:

I just don't dont get the thought process here.

There's no thought process. There's not even a clear target. It's trade up for "a QB". Any QB not named Carr and see what happens. Just flip that coin. Of course, it's very different if you actually have to make that decision and not just talk about it.

[Jerry]

6 minutes ago, oakdb36 said:

There's no thought process. There's not even a clear target. It's trade up for "a QB". Any QB not named Carr and see what happens. Just flip that coin. Of course, it's very different if you actually have to make that decision and not just talk about it.

Completely agree.  Not a lot of logic, just throw stuff at a wall randomly until something sticks.

[drfrey13]

3 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

The moment someone starts talking in hyperbole and with slander against the opposing thought they’ve already lost the discussion.  No one is out of their mind for wanting to keep Carr and not trade the 4 first round picks plus other picks to move up into the top 2-4 and get Wilson or Fields.  
 

again your blaming Carr for everything.  Outside of Mahomes and Rodgers how do you think the other “TOP QBs” like Wilson, Big Ben, etc would do with a WR core consisting of a broken down Jordy Nelson, Martavius Bryant, and Seth Roberts. Or a defense like we’ve had the last few years? 
 

Again I’ve absolutely refuted your argument with the simple statement we aren’t able to get a top 4 pick.... without trading an absurd and crippling draft haul...which is what we would need to get Wilson or Fields.  If we were naturally picking 2-4 we’d all be for drafting Fields/Wilson if after scouting them we thought they’d be a franchise QB.  But us crazies know that even if we land the next Mahomes it’s be a struggle to win with what we have let alone the deteriorating team that would result from years of no first and other high round picks.

furthermore, as I’ve said were just not accepting of the idea of moving on from Carr, a good QB at a great price, for the 3rd or 4th QB in a class.  Trey Lance, Tua, Jordan Love, etc could easily be the next Mitch Trubisky or Sam D’Arnold and if we traded Up for them it’d cripple us for 5 years.... like 5 years of 2-14 type cripple.

us “crazies” know what Carr is.  He’s been around a long time.  He’s a QB you can win with if your have a good team around him, but can’t pick up a 4-6 win team and make them 10,11 wins.  
 

I think it’s actually crazy to put the franchise future for the next decade in the hands of a 1yr small school QB like Lance and think that with significantly  less resources then Carr and no hope of building a solid defense that he’s going to be some HOF QB that miraculously leads us to the playoffs.

there’s a far better chance that if we fix the defense and let the offense develop we can be a playoff team.

I understand your passionate about moving on from Carr but there is no reason to talk bad about people Who disagree.  And I’m (absolutely not) sorry to tell you this but Carr will be the Raiders QB in ‘21.  Get over it and yourself.  
 

Btw.... exactly which QB do you want? And honestly what’s the cost of getting him?  These massive details always get left out Of the arguments by the anti-Carr side..... because it doesn’t suit their narrative.  They know the cost would be massive and the gamble would be insane, especially when It’s for the 3rd or 4th QB in a draft class.... players that are being artificially pumped up in the draft because of their position.

I agree with this but just see it from the other side.  This whole Carr argument is mostly, 95% of the posters, two groups seeing the argument from a risk averse or risk seeking point of view.  Almost nobody is arguing what Carr is but rather if they want to to build around him or someone else.  This argument has dragged on for years now.  Carr will be our QB next year and I am 99% certain he gives us our best chance to win next year but I also believe 3 years from now we have a chance to be drastically better or worse team if we move on from him now.  I do not think Carr is a good fit for Gruden's offense and believe for us to win a championship one of them needs to go or adapt.  As far as QBs to replace Carr the best options would be to keep Mariota, try a reclamation project like Trubisky, or sign a vet like Fitzpatrick for two years and let Gruden draft a QB that best suits his system.  It would take at least 2 years to get back to were we are now unless we are insanely lucky but we could focus on building the team around the QBOTF before we throw him to the wolves or give him a large contract.  Maybe we have a 2-3 win season and get a QB in the top 5 but it is still going to suck as fans for a couple year.  We can play it safe and be a playoff or take a chance to be a top 5 drafting team to a Super Bowl contender.

[NCOUGHMAN]

44 minutes ago, Geezy said:

remember Carrs rookie year when his top options were 30 year old James Jones, Andre Holmes and Mychal Rivera lol and the defense had starters like Brandian Ross, Tarell Brown, Miles Burris and Sio Moore lol team started 0-10, lets put it on the 2nd round rookie who started day 1. 

Well pick the 5 years then lol

[NCOUGHMAN]

35 minutes ago, Jerry said:

Derek Carr is at 37-43 over the last 5 seasons.  That 2018 season was a complete rebuild of a season too (4-12).  I'd rather have the last 5 years of almost .500 than a 20-60 record.  I really don't get how you would want 5 straight years of 4-12 instead of Derek Carr.  I just don't dont get the thought process here.

So basically you’re ok with losing as long as Carr’s the qb.... got it. To me 37-43 is not that different than 20-60. I’m too old for moral victories.

[NYRaider]

5 hours ago, big_palooka said:

When you're lining up with 3 TEs and a FB in the red zone it shows a disconnect with modern offenses. When he's favoring vets like Witten over younger, more promising players... it's hard not to recognize that as a concern when he was hired.

The offense has been good, but 25th in red zone scoring and the play calling beyond suspect and conservative in key moments. 

Not to mention refusing to get Ruggs involved in the offense in any way other than targeting him on deep balls. Or playing Zay Jones more than Bryan Edwards over the course of the season when there were reports Edwards looked like the best player on the team during TC and flashed when he actually did see the field. 

Agreed, Gruden's conservative play calling, especially in the red zone cost us big time this season. Daniel Carlson set the franchise record for most points in a season and IIRC led the NFL in points, which isn't necessarily a good thing. As it highlights how many times we settled for 3 as opposed to finishing drives with TD. 

Punting with the lead in the 4th quarter against the Chiefs, settling for 3 in OT against the Chargers, and settling for 3 at the end of the Miami game is legit the difference between us being 11-5 and in the playoffs and 8-8.

[NYRaider]

27 minutes ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

So basically you’re ok with losing as long as Carr’s the qb.... got it. To me 37-43 is not that different than 20-60. I’m too old for moral victories.

Tom Cable had the same win % in like 2.75 seasons with Russell, Walter, Campbell, Frye, and Grodkowski as Carr/Gruden have in 3 seasons, lol. 

[Jerry]

33 minutes ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

So basically you’re ok with losing as long as Carr’s the qb.... got it. To me 37-43 is not that different than 20-60. I’m too old for moral victories.

5 years of 4-12.  You're too old for moral victories but not too old for 5 straight years of 4-12?  Okay.  You go ahead.  Stay too old for moral victories.  I'll be here, happier to go 8-8 than 4-12.

[big_palooka]

5 hours ago, oakdb36 said:

If you're paying attention i didn't praise him or criticize him. I don't need to criticize him, you and a majority of this forum have it covered. What i'm pointing out here is there has been positive development with the offense and it's totally ignored. A fair assessment implies talking about the good and the bad. When you choose one or the other, the bias comes to light.

The offense has been a postive. I've more than acknowledged that. Carr is comfortable if not spectacular in the offense now. They have some serious talent. However, the red zone issues and conservative play calling have been consistent. 

Also... fair or not, you pay a coach 10 year 100 mil the expectations are high. For that money, you could have hired nearly any coach you wanted. Davis choose Gruden and the results have been worse than 3 years with Jack Del Rio. 

 Praise the offensive improvement all you want, but you don't hire a 100 mil coach to have a 25th ranked red zone offense and flop the second half of the season twice. You pay that to be a consistent playoff contender every year. They are miles form that currently.

 

 

[oakdb36]

I don't give a damn how much the coaches are making when it doesn't impact the salary cap.

But if you want to talk about HC salaries, i also think they're grossly underpaid if 10M/Y is considered high. How the man in charge of the whole team is going to make 1/3rd of the starting QB? Not talking specifically about the Raiders here but throughout the league.

Edited January 21, 2021 by oakdb36