Super Bowl LV: Kansas City Chiefs vs Tampa Bay Buccaneers

[Chiefer]

13 minutes ago, King Joffrey said:

I agree completely.  Mahomes ability to wait and give his guys and plays time to develop fully is one of his best traits. He is a 10/10 decision maker as well.  I think he is no doubt the most valuable asset in the league.  Not trying to hate on him.

I mean what you say is valid he does have a great coach and weapons.

but if Teams are gonna drop everybody into simple coverages like the Bills did than you punish them for it with a death by a thousand small cuts.

this is why I disagreed with everybody pregame that said the Bills should repeat what they did the first time to combat the chiefs. You cannot play scared against the Chiefs or that speed will destroy you.

[Archimedes]

57 minutes ago, King Joffrey said:

yeahhhh no.....

 

The late 00s Pats?  really?  If they had the 07 roster for more than a year or so, it would be up there but it was short lived

 

Well, in fact that offensive supporting cast was together for more than 1 year. They were together for 3. One year they carried one of the worst QBs in the NFL to what was statistically speaking a top 10 season.

57 minutes ago, King Joffrey said:

Alex Smith lead the league in passer rating with this all star cast, and he is barely a top 25 qb

So that’s your argument? Alex Smith was barely a top 25 QB the year he led the league in passer rating 🙄

57 minutes ago, King Joffrey said:

and it's not a hot take, Mahomes is great.  but watching these games he is legit throwing to wide open guys most of the time.  It's unreal.  Idk what there is to argue.  If I said he was overrated or something I would get it, I didn't.  Just said he isn't the best to ever play the position like a lot are crowning him.  He and Rodgers are 1a/1b right now, which is high praise.

It’s absolutely a hot take, and it speaks to a fundamental lack of understanding of some of the all time great supporting casts we’ve seen in NFL history. And it also speaks to a fundamental lack of understanding of the historical significance of what Mahomes has accomplished so quickly. Rank him however you want to rank him, your statement was hogwash.

We’ve literally seen this supporting cast/scheme with another good QB under center and they weren’t this prolific. So of course we now resort to rewriting history to make that the case.

57 minutes ago, King Joffrey said:

 

Idk how anyone can watch the Chiefs play football and not see the scheming going on and how much more advanced they are than everyone else.  Like, the personnel in my mind isn't as good as the Rams from 99-01 like you mentioned but it's stacked as hell, on top of the scheming leaving defenses looking like amateurs.  It's like watching Oklahoma CFB, where every other big play is to a guy uncovered for the most part.  Just too many moving pieces for a defense to stop.

[King Joffrey]

24 minutes ago, Archimedes said:

Well, in fact that offensive supporting cast was together for more than 1 year. They were together for 3. One year they carried one of the worst QBs in the NFL to what was statistically speaking a top 10 season.

So that’s your argument? Alex Smith was barely a top 25 QB the year he led the league in passer rating 🙄

It’s absolutely a hot take, and it speaks to a fundamental lack of understanding of some of the all time great supporting casts we’ve seen in NFL history. And it also speaks to a fundamental lack of understanding of the historical significance of what Mahomes has accomplished so quickly. Rank him however you want to rank him, your statement was hogwash.

We’ve literally seen this supporting cast/scheme with another good QB under center and they weren’t this prolific. So of course we now resort to rewriting history to make that the case.

To me 2007 was the only year we saw the cast as one, as Brady was out of 2008.  Other smaller pieces fell.  By the time 2009 hit, it wasn't the same.  Moss was cut in early 2010.  Had we seen Brady not go down in 2008 and we got to see them for 3 full seasons it would be a candidate.  Brady in 2009, although high in DVOA was still not back to his MVP form.  It took 2010 for him be fully back.

Yeah cause it's Alex Smith.  Dude had nearly a 105 passer rating in 2017 playing the season before PM15 came in.  I was exaggerating a bit with the 25th, but I would say Smith was the definition of an average QB.  he gives you a chance to win but that's about it.  

 

Disagree with the hot take point.  I generally see fans suggest that Mahomes from '18 - '20 is playing the highest peak of QB ever played.  I don't think he's there but he is a viable contender and will have many chances at it.   And this Chiefs roster combined with the offensive minds they have are up there for best casts for me, no doubt.  Hill and Kelce are potential HoF'ers.  Watkins/Williams/Hardman/CEH are very nice complimentary pieces.  Mahomes is obviously an MVP QB, and Reid/EB are revered.   I would take the Rams GSoT roster over this due to Pace/Bruce/Faulk/Holt/Warner all being at their peak, but this is up there for sure.  It's not just the roster talent, but the braintrust with this Chiefs squad that is remarkable.  

Edited January 29, 2021 by King Joffrey

[SkippyX]

I feel like Mahomes deserves an additional nickname like Hold My Beer

Player X held this record until Mahomes said "Hold my beer"

• QB Rating
• Playoff QB rating
• TD/INT
  • Brady is 3rd all-time at 3.30 to 1
  • Rodgers was the king of this and is now at 4.63 to 1
  • Mahomes is at 4.75 to 1
• TD/INT in the playoffs (Alex Smith is 14 to 2, Mahomes is now 17 to 2)
• Look at this and try not to laugh at how ludicrous it is:  (ANY/A)
  • https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_adj_net_yds_per_att_career.htm
  • and playoffs https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_adj_net_yds_per_att_career_playoffs.htm

 

Try this one - Win Percentage Regular Season and Playoffs Combined:

• Staubach was at .732
• Lamar Jackson is at .756 so far
• Brady is amazing with an overall win percentage of .767
• Otto Graham is at .788 (pre-1950 was not the NFL)
• Mahomes is at .830 right now
  • For comparison, Warner in the GSoT 1999-2001 years was .816
    • '61-'67 Bart Starr was .800

 

NOTE: This Win Percentage is for everyone 1970-present and the greats in the past.

If Pops McGee went 18-3 for the Providence Steamroller in the 1920s then I missed him.

 

[Archimedes]

2 hours ago, King Joffrey said:

To me 2007 was the only year we saw the cast as one, as Brady was out of 2008.  Other smaller pieces fell.  By the time 2009 hit, it wasn't the same.  Moss was cut in early 2010.  Had we seen Brady not go down in 2008 and we got to see them for 3 full seasons it would be a candidate.  Brady in 2009, although high in DVOA was still not back to his MVP form.  It took 2010 for him be fully back.

Yeah cause it's Alex Smith.  Dude had nearly a 105 passer rating in 2017 playing the season before PM15 came in.  I was exaggerating a bit with the 25th, but I would say Smith was the definition of an average QB.  he gives you a chance to win but that's about it.  

 

Disagree with the hot take point.  I generally see fans suggest that Mahomes from '18 - '20 is playing the highest peak of QB ever played.  I don't think he's there but he is a viable contender and will have many chances at it.   And this Chiefs roster combined with the offensive minds they have are up there for best casts for me, no doubt.  Hill and Kelce are potential HoF'ers.  Watkins/Williams/Hardman/CEH are very nice complimentary pieces.  Mahomes is obviously an MVP QB, and Reid/EB are revered.   I would take the Rams GSoT roster over this due to Pace/Bruce/Faulk/Holt/Warner all being at their peak, but this is up there for sure.  It's not just the roster talent, but the braintrust with this Chiefs squad that is remarkable.  

You mentioned the supporting cast/coaching. Yes, they didn’t have Brady in 2008, but the supporting cast specifically was together for all 3.

As for Alex Smith, no one is saying he’s a world beater, but now suddenly people want to act like the dude wasn’t a really good qb. He was good enough that there were a LOT of voices questioning whether the Chiefs should have moved on from him after 2017.

As far as the supporting cast, Hill is a HOF caliber talent. Kelce is a HOF caliber talent. Reid is one of the brightest minds out there and HOFer IMO. It’s a fantastic supporting cast, no doubt, but it’s massive hyperbole to say we’ve never seen anything like it before.

I think there are a few other QBs that could have gotten this team to the SB last year. But the Niners DL DOMINATED the Chiefs OL. I don’t know that there’s another QB that could have won the SB. 

I think there are a few other QBs that could have gotten this team to the SB this year. I don’t know that there’s another QB that could have gotten the team to 14-1 like Mahomes did. Maybe Rodgers.

 

[SBLIII]

10 hours ago, Nightime said:

We’ll see. San Francisco had the clear advantage in the trenches on both sides of the ball in the last Super Bowl

well, it came down to a 3rd and 15 and was very close. Who knows how it goes. That's why you play the games.

[Jakuvious]

3 hours ago, Chiefer said:

I mean what you say is valid he does have a great coach and weapons.

but if Teams are gonna drop everybody into simple coverages like the Bills did than you punish them for it with a death by a thousand small cuts.

this is why I disagreed with everybody pregame that said the Bills should repeat what they did the first time to combat the chiefs. You cannot play scared against the Chiefs or that speed will destroy you.

Buffalo had the right gameplan, they just didn't have the personnel to execute it.

[FinSting]

46 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

Buffalo had the right gameplan, they just didn't have the personnel to execute it.

That means they had the wrong gameplan. It's science. 

[Nightime]

The Bills game was pretty easy. It was the Hill/Kelce show. People used to say that you need to sit in zone coverage, don’t let Mahomes go deep, and wait for him to make a mistake. Lol

The Chiefs knew Buffalo would run a soft defense, so instead of going to a run first gameplan, they dinked and dunked their way down the field. Mahomes executed the gameplan perfectly. 

He is tremendous. More SB appearances than Aaron Rodgers. He has as many Super Bowl touchdowns as Peyton Manning (3). He has half as many playoff touchdowns as Peyton Manning in 1/4 the games played. He makes the AFCCG every year. 

The only people who make SB appearances mundane are Tom Brady and Patrick Mahomes. There’s a reason they are back, and are likely to be back again next year.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Nightime

[Chiefer]

8 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

Buffalo had the right gameplan, they just didn't have the personnel to execute it.

Nobody does that’s the point. You’d need two Jalen Ramsey’s, a great DL, and a smart blitz plan.otherwise the Chiefs YAC monsters will eat, or eventually break you once you tire out from the marathon Reid puts you through.

really I think you ultimately need to make the game not fun for Mahomes.

 

[Nightime]

8 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

Buffalo had the right gameplan, they just didn't have the personnel to execute it.

They needed a pass rush with 4 men. They never truly stopped the Chiefs offense, they got lucky Hill dropped that pass on the first drive 

[Jakuvious]

17 minutes ago, Chiefer said:

Nobody does that’s the point. You’d need two Jalen Ramsey’s, a great DL, and a smart blitz plan.otherwise the Chiefs YAC monsters will eat, or eventually break you once you tire out from the marathon Reid puts you through.

really I think you ultimately need to make the game not fun for Mahomes.

 

Buffalo just didn't have the DL for it. That was really the only problem. San Fran, LAC, have done well enough to win, just have choked or the O hasn't scored enough for them. But blitzing has never came close to working. Tampa played aggressive the whole first half against us and got absolutely humiliated. They switch to a more reserved 2 high look the second half and did better. Baltimore blitzes us constantly and will continue to fail against us as a result. Their elite defense never looks like it against us.

The answer for great QBs has NEVER been blitzing. At least not much. It's always been more bodies in coverage, with a DL that can pressure with 3 or 4. As of week 13 this year, Mahomes had 1 CAREER INT against the blitz (I don't know about the Miami interceptions, and I'm too lazy to dig up the highlights right now.) He has a lower sack rate when blitzed, than when not blitzed. The things blitzing is supposed to create, mistakes and negative plays, actually happen less when you blitz Mahomes, than when you don't. His passer rating was 136.5 against the blitz this year.

You need to pressure Mahomes, yes, you need to make the game not fun for him, yes, but you do not do that by blitzing. You go two or three deep, play good coverage, disguise coverages as best you can, and then you need the DL to win and get pressure on it's own. That's exactly what Buffalo tried, they just didn't have the DL to do that last bit. 

[Chiefer]

8 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

Buffalo just didn't have the DL for it. That was really the only problem. San Fran, LAC, have done well enough to win, just have choked or the O hasn't scored enough for them. But blitzing has never came close to working. Tampa played aggressive the whole first half against us and got absolutely humiliated. They switch to a more reserved 2 high look the second half and did better. Baltimore blitzes us constantly and will continue to fail against us as a result. Their elite defense never looks like it against us.

The answer for great QBs has NEVER been blitzing. At least not much. It's always been more bodies in coverage, with a DL that can pressure with 3 or 4. As of week 13 this year, Mahomes had 1 CAREER INT against the blitz (I don't know about the Miami interceptions, and I'm too lazy to dig up the highlights right now.) He has a lower sack rate when blitzed, than when not blitzed. The things blitzing is supposed to create, mistakes and negative plays, actually happen less when you blitz Mahomes, than when you don't. His passer rating was 136.5 against the blitz this year.

You need to pressure Mahomes, yes, you need to make the game not fun for him, yes, but you do not do that by blitzing. You go two or three deep, play good coverage, disguise coverages as best you can, and then you need the DL to win and get pressure on it's own. That's exactly what Buffalo tried, they just didn't have the DL to do that last bit. 

Blitzing is fine as long as you’re smart with it. Send four rushers, but not the same four rushers. Confuse him and the OL.
 

False blitzes, pressure coming in at different angles. Pretend to send some DBs and drop them back, drop a DL into a spy role, stunts, twists, etc. My point is you’ve got to make Mahomes uncomfortable, both physically and mentally. Get him on the ground, but also challenge his young mind by being creative.
 

you can’t make the game easy for him like Buffalo. Which is what you do by just sending 4 of the same rush pattern, and drop everybody into HS Level Soft Zones because you’re scared of the speed. Then you’re just resigning yourself to your fate 

Edited January 30, 2021 by Chiefer

[SteelKing728]

I want Brady's legacy to be untouchable and the only guy that's even a smidge close to it is Mahomes.

Sorry, but I have to root for Tampa here.

[NeptunePenguins]

Tom Brady mostly loses to the meme esque QBs in the playoffs. 

 

2005: Jake Plumber 

2006: Peyton Manning (threw 3 TDs and 7 INTs in 4 playoff games with a 70.5 passer rating.) So he was playing like a meme QB at the time.

2007: Eli Manning

2009: Joe Flacco

2010: Mark Sanchez 

2011: Eli Manning

2012: Joe Flacco

2013: Peyton Manning (The one time an all-time great QB played well and beat Tom Brady in the playoffs, but that 2013 Patriots team was not very good outside Brady tbh)

2015: Zombie Peyton Manning

2017: Nick Foles

2019: Ryan Tannehill

 

Meanwhile he has beaten the likes of Kurt Warner, Peyton Manning 2000 times, Philip Rivers, Big Ben, McNabb, Russell Wilson, Matt Ryan, Andrew Luck, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, and Mahomes himself in the playoffs. 

 

 

Now I do think this is mostly just a coincidence, and that the Chiefs are probably favored to win yeah. Though if the Bucs get the job done, this will only add to the legend (outside of 2013 Manning beating one of the weaker Patriots teams I have seen)