Random Packer News & Notes

[R T]

1 hour ago, Norm said:

I don't want to get into this **** but I still don't perfectly understand the LT only. 

What's to stop a team from flipping LE/RE based on advantage. Isn't that 90% of it?

It is really an individual thing and some flip easily and others not so much. When Nijman arrived as an UDFA the big knock on him was that his mind and feet didn't work together despite all that athleticism and probably the reason he went undrafted. After a couple of years of the Packers working with him, he has the left side down, but with his history he is probably the last OL to make an easy transition from left to right. That is the reason for my earlier comment. 

[Norm]

22 minutes ago, R T said:

It is really an individual thing and some flip easily and others not so much. When Nijman arrived as an UDFA the big knock on him was that his mind and feet didn't work together despite all that athleticism and probably the reason he went undrafted. After a couple of years of the Packers working with him, he has the left side down, but with his history he is probably the last OL to make an easy transition from left to right. That is the reason for my earlier comment. 

Totally get the flip for either side of the line and the issues. Not even saying you're wrong. I just think it's, IDK, overstated? Or I'm just dumb, and it's probably that IDK 

[Zycho32]

3 hours ago, Norm said:

Totally get the flip for either side of the line and the issues. Not even saying you're wrong. I just think it's, IDK, overstated? Or I'm just dumb, and it's probably that IDK 

It's a little overstated, but not by as much as you think. Get a refill for your mug, this will be a bit lengthy.

The layman thinks of pass blocking and thinks of linemen steadily advancing backwards straight up- as in, their chests pointed forwards and not turned to any side. That happens more often than not for the interior guards and centers because they usually have defenders charging into them off the bat. Tackles don't have that luxury.

Okay, you're playing Left Tackle and there's a fierce edge rusher lined up against you. You know he has burning speed and has a real good chance of flanking you if you're caught flat-footed. When the ball is snapped, you're not backpedaling in a straight direction(you know this, but stick with me), you're going backwards and sideways because the guy's most likely moves involve going to the outside(not always, but it's the standard) and you have to keep your body pointed against him in order to engage him fully. You also sadly cannot do the sideways run they teach you very early on that keeps your chest pointed towards the enemy, because that sacrifices your anchor for better mobility, and you can't block for crap without your feet anchored in place, so you're essentially shuffling on steroids; your left leg reaches out and your body slides along with it. The faster you can shuffle, the less ground on a curved path that you concede to the rusher.

In a sense, playing Left Tackle teaches your left leg and arm to be the dominant limbs in an engagement; the leg because it has to be the one propelling you in pass pro while your right leg is just a stabilizer that keeps you from falling over. The left arm comes from containing the guy from getting around you on your outside. It's less dominant compared to the right arm as the left leg is to the right leg, but you'd be amazed how hard it is to switch back and forth between arms to fulfill specialized roles. Same for the legs. Your right leg might be receiving the same exercise and buildup as the left, but if it has to all of a sudden be the propeller at RT instead of the stabilizer, your footwork's going to be shoddier, and that'll take more time to correct in practice, if it can be corrected at all, since if subtle habits were easily correctable, there wouldn't be any collage of dumb decisions out on the gridiron for us plebs to laugh at.

[AlexGreen#20]

12 hours ago, Norm said:

Was there some philosophy of sticking your TE on the end of the right side too, so that's where you might want to run too more often. IDK. I'm not an xs and os guy. I just like to make fun of stupid people with stupid opinions.

It's more historical and tactical. 

The theory was:

Your best pass protector played at LT to protect the QB's blindside and it didn't super matter if he could run block. 

Your most athletic Guard played at LG because he would be a better pass blocker and he would be better pulling, either short pulls to the left side where your LT would likely be a better reach blocker, or on long pulls to the right where you would send him if you were looking to have overwhelming numbers. 

Your less athletic Guard, typically your Guard with better drive skills, played RG as the theory was that the QB should be better able to deal with B gap and exterior pressure from the right side because he could see it in his peripherals. This let you put your better drive blocking Guard, your better drive blocking Tackle, and then when you pulled your LG, all in one area. So you ended up with three big guys on that side. 

Typically you also played the TE on the right side to help the RT who can't pass block, and to add even another body into that mix. This was back when TEs could actually block. 

There's some advantage to having your two best drive blockers next to each other, as on 3rd and 1, you don't need to concern yourself with getting up to the LBs. You only have to focus on digging out the NT squatting in the gap. You'll have your best chance of doing that if it's your two best guys trying to dig him out. 

Obviously all of this is based on 30-ish year old information, and while the short yardage argument still has some weight, it has far less weight than the argument "Hey retard, we throw 70% of the time, throwing makes up 80% of my yards, and my QB makes roughly seventy quadrillion dollars per year. Pass blocking is the first priority, pass blocking is the second priority, and pass blocking is the third priority."

Edited August 21, 2022 by AlexGreen#20

[AlexGreen#20]

7 hours ago, Zycho32 said:

It's a little overstated, but not by as much as you think. Get a refill for your mug, this will be a bit lengthy.

The layman thinks of pass blocking and thinks of linemen steadily advancing backwards straight up- as in, their chests pointed forwards and not turned to any side. That happens more often than not for the interior guards and centers because they usually have defenders charging into them off the bat. Tackles don't have that luxury.

Okay, you're playing Left Tackle and there's a fierce edge rusher lined up against you. You know he has burning speed and has a real good chance of flanking you if you're caught flat-footed. When the ball is snapped, you're not backpedaling in a straight direction(you know this, but stick with me), you're going backwards and sideways because the guy's most likely moves involve going to the outside(not always, but it's the standard) and you have to keep your body pointed against him in order to engage him fully. You also sadly cannot do the sideways run they teach you very early on that keeps your chest pointed towards the enemy, because that sacrifices your anchor for better mobility, and you can't block for crap without your feet anchored in place, so you're essentially shuffling on steroids; your left leg reaches out and your body slides along with it. The faster you can shuffle, the less ground on a curved path that you concede to the rusher.

In a sense, playing Left Tackle teaches your left leg and arm to be the dominant limbs in an engagement; the leg because it has to be the one propelling you in pass pro while your right leg is just a stabilizer that keeps you from falling over. The left arm comes from containing the guy from getting around you on your outside. It's less dominant compared to the right arm as the left leg is to the right leg, but you'd be amazed how hard it is to switch back and forth between arms to fulfill specialized roles. Same for the legs. Your right leg might be receiving the same exercise and buildup as the left, but if it has to all of a sudden be the propeller at RT instead of the stabilizer, your footwork's going to be shoddier, and that'll take more time to correct in practice, if it can be corrected at all, since if subtle habits were easily correctable, there wouldn't be any collage of dumb decisions out on the gridiron for us plebs to laugh at.

This is a good point, however I would add that modern NFL programs are now doing significant work to correct some of the muscular imbalance that develops, both because it helps the guy be more versatile on the field, but also because it helps prevent injuries. 

 

[craig]

21 hours ago, R T said:

That is not happening. Nijman is a LT only ....   

This is tangent to the broader discussion of LT/RT. 

Stenovich commented in this week's press conference  that for now Nijman is better at LT, and has tended to make more mistakes and be less consistent at RT.  (Footwork, I think?). Steno's the coach, so his perception drives decision-making. 

Obviously coaches can change their minds later, and dedicated practice at RT might faciliate that.  But for now, Steno has less confidence in Nijman at RT.  

[craig]

Coaches are often nothing-but-positive, and in the same interview Steno had been very positive about Hanson. 

Alex had noted that sometimes coaches love the coached-up scramblers.  Might Steno as an under-talented long-term practice-squad scrambler have a natural affinity for Hanson?

Nijman is likewise a practice-squad product, but I get the sense that Steno might not see him quite the same way.  Perhaps there is affinity for over-achiever scramblers who pursue every nuance of technique and mental game in order to try to work around their talent disadvantage?  Whereas guys who seem to have plenty of natural capacity, but who just aren't as good, or perhaps as hungry, at grasping all the technique and classroom stuff, are a little more frustrating?  

After starting for months, Steno benched Nijman vs SanFran to start Kelly and to start Turner at a position he hadn't played all season.   Might be consistent with a deal where Steno might not fully trust Nijman's resiliency?  

Edited August 21, 2022 by craig

[Packer_ESP]

3 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

It's more historical and tactical. 

The theory was:

Your best pass protector played at LT to protect the QB's blindside and it didn't super matter if he could run block. 

Your most athletic Guard played at LG because he would be a better pass blocker and he would be better pulling, either short pulls to the left side where your LT would likely be a better reach blocker, or on long pulls to the right where you would send him if you were looking to have overwhelming numbers. 

Your less athletic Guard, typically your Guard with better drive skills, played RG as the theory was that the QB should be better able to deal with B gap and exterior pressure from the right side because he could see it in his peripherals. This let you put your better drive blocking Guard, your better drive blocking Tackle, and then when you pulled your LG, all in one area. So you ended up with three big guys on that side. 

Typically you also played the TE on the right side to help the RT who can't pass block, and to add even another body into that mix. This was back when TEs could actually block. 

There's some advantage to having your two best drive blockers next to each other, as on 3rd and 1, you don't need to concern yourself with getting up to the LBs. You only have to focus on digging out the NT squatting in the gap. You'll have your best chance of doing that if it's your two best guys trying to dig him out. 

Obviously all of this is based on 30-ish year old information, and while the short yardage argument still has some weight, it has far less weight than the argument "Hey retard, we throw 70% of the time, throwing makes up 80% of my yards, and my QB makes roughly seventy quadrillion dollars per year. Pass blocking is the first priority, pass blocking is the second priority, and pass blocking is the third priority."

Back when all of this was true, how did they deal with left handed QBs? Or they just didn't exist because of all of this?

[Mazrimiv]

20 minutes ago, Packer_ESP said:

Back when all of this was true, how did they deal with left handed QBs? Or they just didn't exist because of all of this?

For as long as I've been watching football (mid 70's) the “blind side” thing has been a talking point for the announcers whenever a left-handed QB is playing.

[Zycho32]

1 hour ago, Packer_ESP said:

Back when all of this was true, how did they deal with left handed QBs? Or they just didn't exist because of all of this?

There have been a few here and there. Generally, southpaws are tolerated as passers provided they're dang good at their craft. About the only difference is which side they more naturally turn to when readying a pass, and this was a key thing back in the early formations that often had only one end split out and the other drawn in like a tight end(rightys have an advantage throwing towards their left, which often placed the 'split end' on the left side of the formation), but with the advent of the flanker in the late 50's that ceased to be a general problem.

As far as building your OL for a lefty QB goes, there wasn't any real sophistication, especially at first. RTs were getting all the All-Pro accolades primarily for running on the strong side, but there were several guys who were just as good at pass pro, while the LTs did not routinely suffer humiliation because the real rushers were lined up against the right side(also reflected in All-Pro accolades, which rarely saw an RDE get much attention). This changed once the Pass Interference rules were greatly revamped in '78 and passing really got kicked up a notch. Then you started seeing speed merchants and general terrors try to come in from the blind side- most notably Lawrence Taylor- and soon the Left-Pass/Right-Run philosophy started to become much more apparent. That said, you just couldn't reverse the order for a lefty QB because you very likely would have an orthodox righty backing him up for vice versa. It was much more easier, and certainly more stable, to teach your unit to have a more balanced outlook. So instead of Left-Pass/Right-Run, you'd have Balanced-Left/Balanced-Right. That works no matter what arm you throw with. Another reason to discout the idea that an OL unit reversed its roles for a lefty is that in general, only one lefty I've managed to discover ever had a truly consistent RT protecting his blind side- Harris Barton, who blocked for Steve Young during most of his 49er days and also blocked for Joe Montana prior to that, but he never got any accolades for such a 'strange' role. Everyone else had multiple changes at RT over the course of their careers, none of them generating much noteworthiness. Good players to be sure- you don't make the NFL if you suck- but they just weren't talked about.

As for the list of lefty QBs, from like the nineties and earlier? Four come to mind. Frankie Albert of the 40's/50's 49ers, Ken Stabler of the Raiders, Boomer Esiason of the Bengals, and the aforementioned Steve Young. I'm probably missing a few here and there.


 

[Mazrimiv]

7 minutes ago, Zycho32 said:

As for the list of lefty QBs, from like the nineties and earlier? Four come to mind. Frankie Albert of the 40's/50's 49ers, Ken Stabler of the Raiders, Boomer Esiason of the Bengals, and the aforementioned Steve Young. I'm probably missing a few here and there.

You forgot Packers legend Jim Del Gaizo!

[AlexGreen#20]

4 hours ago, Packer_ESP said:

Back when all of this was true, how did they deal with left handed QBs? Or they just didn't exist because of all of this?

You either flip all of it, or just avoid left handed QBs. 

[Zycho32]

9 hours ago, Mazrimiv said:

You forgot Packers legend Jim Del Gaizo!

I also forgot Jim Zorn.

[PossibleCabbage]

7 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

You either flip all of it, or just avoid left handed QBs. 

Mostly avoided.  There have been only 44 left-handed QBs to even play quarterback in the NFL.  Some of these guys were just undeniable talents that you figured out a way to make work (e.g. Mike Vick) but for the most part lefties get moved from quarterback to a different position in high school if not earlier.

The weird one is Tua, who is right-handed in his everyday life but plays football left-handed.

Edited August 22, 2022 by PossibleCabbage

[vegas492]

On 8/20/2022 at 5:40 PM, gopackgo972 said:

Our line is better if Nijman is playing RT with a healthy Bakh at LT and Jenkins at a guard spot.

That totally beats having to play Newman somewhere.