Post Game Thoughts. Browns.

[CriminalMind]

14 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

I have read all the arguments here. After thinking it over, I have to agree with the people that are calling for a change in leadership. I believe that change ought to start at the GM level. Some that have a problem with some people having the opinion that the team needs a change in leadership seem to be blindly defending the Vikings leadership. They (the people with some others' opinions) are presenting no evidence to support their position that the leadership shouldn't be changed. They (the people with some others' opinions) are very bad at debating. 

I don't agree that the coaching is complete dreck, but I also think that the philosophy of the organization is wrong. It is going to take a new GM to change that.

My head is saying that if the struggles continue (and it likely will over the next 3 games), we might see a change at HC heading into the bye. Rick could make Zim be the fall guy and they promote Kubick to HC (to ride out the rest of the year). Kubick, performs ok, but no real on-field improvement (over the new expected). This could sets up a conversation with Rick and ownership, about new direction, with a new HC and Kubick being dismissed as well, so a new HC can bring in coordinators/staff of his own.

I think Rick gets to escape, because ownership prefers not a full tear down, this ownership just doesn't seem to do business that way.

[viking]

48 minutes ago, JDBrocks said:

@viking - Since it doesn't seem like the moderators @gopherwrestler/ @Heimdallr are going to stop you from following me around the forum, name calling, harassing me via PMs, and generally acting childish, I'll say this - there is an ignore feature if you don't like me. You never have to read another one of my posts.

As far as debating this point, I don't think that anything Mike Zimmer has or hasn't done THIS SEASON has risen to the level of a fireable offense. There are several acute reasons that the vikings are 1-3 as opposed to 3-1 or 2-2 that have nothing to do with bad coaching.  I've said as much in multiple threads.

In a debate, the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. I'm not the one saying he should be fired. I don't think that any of the reasons presented so far have been convincing.

@Cearbhall if you're going to claim that someone is bad at debating, A: say it, and B: see the statement above about burden of proof. 

 

Nothing has been said Via PMs that hasn't been said here so stop being so dramatic. The mods read the posts so i'm not sure tagging them for a third time is going to do much.  

Have you even read the posts, multiple posters have given dozens of reasons why Zimmer needs to be canned. 

[sinceAtikevike]

35 minutes ago, CriminalMind said:

My head is saying that if the struggles continue (and it likely will over the next 3 games), we might see a change at HC heading into the bye. Rick could make Zim be the fall guy and they promote Kubick to HC (to ride out the rest of the year). Kubick, performs ok, but no real on-field improvement (over the new expected). This could sets up a conversation with Rick and ownership, about new direction, with a new HC and Kubick being dismissed as well, so a new HC can bring in coordinators/staff of his own.

I think Rick gets to escape, because ownership prefers not a full tear down, this ownership just doesn't seem to do business that way.

It could be my violet-tinted specs, but overall the roster seems reasonably talented (in comparison to the rest of the league). There were some misses at CB and decisions in roster construction could be argued both ways (OL investment, but every team under a cap has to have a weakest unit so...), but overall I like Rick's style of taking 10-15 lottery tickets from each draft. Part of this view is that I don't hate Kirk and think he is a QB worth putting/continuing to build an offense around (strengthen OL or utilizing a scheme less dependent on boots and establishing the run first). 

I'm glad the Vikings aren't a knee-jerk organization that rebuilds every 3 years by cleaning house, but in year 8 (if it were my decision to make) I am comfortable parting ways with Coach Zim. I think he is a good coach and I like his defensive scheme, but if every offensive coordinator is going to get plucked after having a few decent years and with the modern NFL's love of airing it out, I think we should go with a young offensive-minded coach. If this year continues to go sideways, he will also have made the playoffs 3 times in 8 years (I think that is the number), and I think you can comfortably say the results are in at that point.

I think Kellen Moore is the perfect choice for the Vikings, and I think as a relatively talented offensive team and being an org that doesn't clean house fast makes this job opening a really desirable one.. You can look at the Cowboys offensive personnel (Cook-Zeke, Cooper/Lamb- Thielen/Jefferson, Schultz-Smith, Kirk-Dak) and the fact that they like to establish the run too and make a projection for Moore running a good offense here (IMO). I think you could pair Moore with one of the former head coach defensive coordinator types (Vic Fangio though he looks like he won't be fired in Denver) and have a good staff.

*I'm not saying Dak is Kirk, Cooper is Thielen etc etc, just pointing out that there is talent on both teams on offense.

[SemperFeist]

8 minutes ago, sinceAtikevike said:

It could be my violet-tinted specs, but overall the roster seems reasonably talented (in comparison to the rest of the league). There were some misses at CB and decisions in roster construction could be argued both ways (OL investment, but every team under a cap has to have a weakest unit so...), but overall I like Rick's style of taking 10-15 lottery tickets from each draft. Part of this view is that I don't hate Kirk and think he is a QB worth putting/continuing to build an offense around (strengthen OL or utilizing a scheme less dependent on boots and establishing the run first). 

I'm glad the Vikings aren't a knee-jerk organization that rebuilds every 3 years by cleaning house, but in year 8 (if it were my decision to make) I am comfortable parting ways with Coach Zim. I think he is a good coach and I like his defensive scheme, but if every offensive coordinator is going to get plucked after having a few decent years and with the modern NFL's love of airing it out, I think we should go with a young offensive-minded coach. If this year continues to go sideways, he will also have made the playoffs 3 times in 8 years (I think that is the number), and I think you can comfortably say the results are in at that point.

I think Kellen Moore is the perfect choice for the Vikings, and I think as a relatively talented offensive team and being an org that doesn't clean house fast makes this job opening a really desirable one.. You can look at the Cowboys offensive personnel (Cook-Zeke, Cooper/Lamb- Thielen/Jefferson, Schultz-Smith, Kirk-Dak) and the fact that they like to establish the run too and make a projection for Moore running a good offense here (IMO). I think you could pair Moore with one of the former head coach defensive coordinator types (Vic Fangio though he looks like he won't be fired in Denver) and have a good staff.

*I'm not saying Dak is Kirk, Cooper is Thielen etc etc, just pointing out that there is talent on both teams on offense.

Very well put. 

[Cearbhall]

1 hour ago, JDBrocks said:

 

@Cearbhall if you're going to claim that someone is bad at debating, A: say it, and B: see the statement above about burden of proof. 

 

A: I did say it.  It is right in this thread.

B: The evidence is right in this thread. The rebuttals to the assertion are incredibly weak and ill formed.  Given the weakness of the debate from that side, which happens to be the side you have taken, I am led leaning towards the belief the assertion is true. I think no responses at all would have been a better argument for your side than the responses that I have seen.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Cearbhall

[JDBrocks]

I'm not sure how "the Vikings have been booty" qualifies as a well thought out statement in your world, but so be it.

I'll leave it like this: We are not having this "debate" if Joseph makes the FG in AZ. One missed FG isn't a good enough reason to give up on this season.

The Vikings have played a really difficult schedule so far, and have had some bad luck. I don't think the coaching is perfect - I think they could be more aggressive when they have the lead, and I think that they have had some bad time management issues. Neither of those things have been fireable so far this year in my eyes. 

On the positive side, they've scored more points than they've allowed, they've been in a position to win every game that they've played, the new flavor of this offense has shown that it can be explosive, and the defense has improved each week. Poorly coached teams aren't competitive against every good/great team that they play.

I also don't agree with changing mid-season. I think it sours players, and sets them up for more disfunction down the line. There's nothing to be gained with an interim coach.

[cconocool]

It is a bit ironic that the QBs that would work best for Zimmer are the ones he would hate. Improvisationally adept, mobile within the pocket. Keenum.

[gopherwrestler]

9 hours ago, viking said:

JD you are my least favourite poster on this forum. All you do is ask "your point?" Or "give a valid argument"

But you never give an argument in your favour. Get off the forum if you're not going to put your opinion out there you are so boring 😴 

 

The coaches influenced our off-season moves and that's why we're a bad team.

@vikingthis is your warning. No more of this. 

[viking]

10 minutes ago, gopherwrestler said:

@vikingthis is your warning. No more of this. 

I will continue with calling out any poster who disagrees without any argument on their half but I will stop the personal remarks.

 

Gopher what's your opinion on keeping Zim?

[Guest]

I must admit, that sometimes, I become so discouraged and angry that I want change right now!  However, the more I think about it, Zimmer should be allowed to finish the season, before his future is decided by the Wilfs.  The only thing that would make me think that he should be fired before the season is over is if he loses respect in the locker room.  If the players turn on him, the organization has to act.  However, there is no evidence that is occuring.  

Even with very competitive outings so far, I don't think the Vikings will end up with a winning record, or make the playoffs.  I think that there are more than seven better teams in the NFC- - Dallas, Tampa Bay, Carolina, Green Bay, New Orleans, Arizona, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Washington.  I think the Vikings are in league with Seattle, Philadelphia, New York Giants and Chicago as lower middle of the pack.  The bottom of the NFC heap includes Detroit, Atlanta

[SteelKing728]

7 hours ago, CriminalMind said:

My head is saying that if the struggles continue (and it likely will over the next 3 games), we might see a change at HC heading into the bye. Rick could make Zim be the fall guy and they promote Kubick to HC (to ride out the rest of the year). Kubick, performs ok, but no real on-field improvement (over the new expected). This could sets up a conversation with Rick and ownership, about new direction, with a new HC and Kubick being dismissed as well, so a new HC can bring in coordinators/staff of his own.

I think Rick gets to escape, because ownership prefers not a full tear down, this ownership just doesn't seem to do business that way.

I get it. I really don't see a change happening in-season but it makes some sense.

I think Wilf has too much respect for Zimmer to let it go that way. I could even see it be a "mutual parting" instead of a firing if Zimmer decides he wants to keep coaching in some fashion after this season.

[vikesfan89]

How old is Zimmer?  I wonder if he could be talked into retiring if they wanted to move on. I don't think he'd have much trouble finding a job but it'd be tough to start over at his age. 

Or maybe he would have trouble since he is a defensive coach 

[vikingsrule]

5 minutes ago, vikesfan89 said:

How old is Zimmer?  I wonder if he could be talked into retiring if they wanted to move on. I don't think he'd have much trouble finding a job but it'd be tough to start over at his age. 

Or maybe he would have trouble since he is a defensive coach 

He shouldn’t be a head coach at this stage. I think he’s better suited as a defensive coordinator going forward and surely will have some really good defenses elsewhere with a fresh start. Could see him as a DC with a team with a strong offensive head coach. Not sure who fits that right now. The Zimmer era feels like it’s over if they can’t produce a deep playoff run. But I’m not confident a change will necessarily happen.

[KeithVikings28]

6 hours ago, JDBrocks said:

I'm not sure how "the Vikings have been booty" qualifies as a well thought out statement in your world, but so be it.

I'll leave it like this: We are not having this "debate" if Joseph makes the FG in AZ. One missed FG isn't a good enough reason to give up on this season.

The Vikings have played a really difficult schedule so far, and have had some bad luck. I don't think the coaching is perfect - I think they could be more aggressive when they have the lead, and I think that they have had some bad time management issues. Neither of those things have been fireable so far this year in my eyes. 

On the positive side, they've scored more points than they've allowed, they've been in a position to win every game that they've played, the new flavor of this offense has shown that it can be explosive, and the defense has improved each week. Poorly coached teams aren't competitive against every good/great team that they play.

I also don't agree with changing mid-season. I think it sours players, and sets them up for more disfunction down the line. There's nothing to be gained with an interim coach.

I don’t think that’s the proper way to think about this. Good teams win close games and the Vikings don’t win the close. In a gain of inches, the only thing that matters is wins and losses. No one cares “how close” the game was. They lost and they’re not good. Bad coach and bad roster management.

[JDBrocks]

2 minutes ago, KeithVikings28 said:

I don’t think that’s the proper way to think about this. Good teams win close games and the Vikings don’t win the close. In a gain of inches, the only thing that matters is wins and losses. No one cares “how close” the game was. They lost and they’re not good. Bad coach and bad roster management.

The point stands that no one is calling for Zimmer's head if Joseph makes a very makable kick. If you want to criticize the FO for not having figured out the ST and always having kicking struggles, that's perfectly valid. I don't think that the record reflects the overall team performance. Luck/fluke plays impact all teams. So far this season, the Vikings have been on the wrong end of that more often than not. Not a bad coach. Not a bad roster.