2.42 - Luke Musgrave [TE; Oregon State]

[incognito_man]

Just watched both his cutups again.

+silky smooth in and out of his route breaks, especially at size

+soft hands catching the ball

-soft hands blocking defender (it's legit like his hands have opposing magnets on them whenever they touch a defender. It's uncanny how often he just drops his hands after contact)

-strength. Especially core strength I think. He's already an older prospect, but he has God awful form trying to stick with a block, especially in space. Lunges and falls over himself. Consistently out-muscled

I dunno. High bust potential here. If he was a really young guy I'd feel better about this, but there's no reason he should be THAT bad at blocking vs Fresno and Boise St defenders as a 23yr old. He's gonna get his *** absolutely handed to him in the NFL trying to block. Might be adequate vs DBs blocking in the slot on WR screens, and is adequate about getting in position on reach blocks because of his foot speed. But what little effectiveness he has as a blocker ends after 1.5 seconds or less of engagement. I'd consider bringing back Lewis and paying him double to be Musgrave's personal blocking coach. If he ever becomes AVERAGE as a blocker, he could be a valuable TE. But right now he's a taller slot WR who is a below average blocker even for an NFL WR. Love the receiving upside, but he's gonna absolutely kill you in the running game at the NFL level. You can't trust him right now on the field on running reps.

[Leader]

4 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

Just watched both his cutups again.

+silky smooth in and out of his route breaks, especially at size

+soft hands catching the ball

-soft hands blocking defender (it's legit like his hands have opposing magnets on them whenever they touch a defender. It's uncanny how often he just drops his hands after contact)

-strength. Especially core strength I think. He's already an older prospect, but he has God awful form trying to stick with a block, especially in space. Lunges and falls over himself. Consistently out-muscled

I dunno. High bust potential here. If he was a really young guy I'd feel better about this, but there's no reason he should be THAT bad at blocking vs Fresno and Boise St defenders as a 23yr old. He's gonna get his *** absolutely handed to him in the NFL trying to block. Might be adequate vs DBs blocking in the slot on WR screens, and is adequate about getting in position on reach blocks because of his foot speed. But what little effectiveness he has as a blocker ends after 1.5 seconds or less of engagement. I'd consider bringing back Lewis and paying him double to be Musgrave's personal blocking coach. If he ever becomes AVERAGE as a blocker, he could be a valuable TE. But right now he's a taller slot WR who is a below average blocker even for an NFL WR. Love the receiving upside, but he's gonna absolutely kill you in the running game at the NFL level. You can't trust him right now on the field on running reps.

II wan Musgrave to catch passes. Run out there and catch the ball.

Then run some more

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Leader

[ThatJerkDave]

25 minutes ago, Leader said:

II wan Musgrave to catch passes. Run out there and catch the ball.

Then run some more

 

The issue is that he doesn't run a lot more.  For a guy as big as he is, he is tackled extremely easily.  Just watch his highlight reel.  You see a guy run a very good route, he is fast, and big, and catches the ball perfectly.  Then, a corner recovers and stops him dead in his tracks.  Most TE highlight videos have at least one really funny scrum after catch when they drag 3 or 4 guys for an extra few yards.  One Musgrave highlight video that I watched had him stopped short of a first down by a defensive back, twice.  It is possible that we drafted a really big slot WR.  

Not to call him a bust immediately, but there is a lot of work to be done here.  

[{Family Ghost}]

9 minutes ago, ThatJerkDave said:

The issue is that he doesn't run a lot more.  For a guy as big as he is, he is tackled extremely easily.  Just watch his highlight reel.  You see a guy run a very good route, he is fast, and big, and catches the ball perfectly.  Then, a corner recovers and stops him dead in his tracks.  Most TE highlight videos have at least one really funny scrum after catch when they drag 3 or 4 guys for an extra few yards.  One Musgrave highlight video that I watched had him stopped short of a first down by a defensive back, twice.  It is possible that we drafted a really big slot WR.  

Not to call him a bust immediately, but there is a lot of work to be done here.  

The next tackle he breaks will be his first.  I literally have not witnessed him breaking a single tackle in any of the footage I've watched.  Hopefully the Packers can coach him up, but I found that really concerning. 

[Cousin Eddie]

2 minutes ago, {Family Ghost} said:

The next tackle he breaks will be his first.  I literally have not witnessed him breaking a single tackle in any of the footage I've watched.  Hopefully the Packers can coach him up, but I found that really concerning. 

Yeah, his tape shows athleticism but very little physical. Hope he's not a "looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane" type of player. I'm actually way more excited about Tucker Kraft. Think he may break the 3rd round bust streak for Gute. Reminds me of Gronk/Kittle in terms of physicality.

[vegas492]

1 hour ago, incognito_man said:

Just watched both his cutups again.

+silky smooth in and out of his route breaks, especially at size

+soft hands catching the ball

-soft hands blocking defender (it's legit like his hands have opposing magnets on them whenever they touch a defender. It's uncanny how often he just drops his hands after contact)

-strength. Especially core strength I think. He's already an older prospect, but he has God awful form trying to stick with a block, especially in space. Lunges and falls over himself. Consistently out-muscled

I dunno. High bust potential here. If he was a really young guy I'd feel better about this, but there's no reason he should be THAT bad at blocking vs Fresno and Boise St defenders as a 23yr old. He's gonna get his *** absolutely handed to him in the NFL trying to block. Might be adequate vs DBs blocking in the slot on WR screens, and is adequate about getting in position on reach blocks because of his foot speed. But what little effectiveness he has as a blocker ends after 1.5 seconds or less of engagement. I'd consider bringing back Lewis and paying him double to be Musgrave's personal blocking coach. If he ever becomes AVERAGE as a blocker, he could be a valuable TE. But right now he's a taller slot WR who is a below average blocker even for an NFL WR. Love the receiving upside, but he's gonna absolutely kill you in the running game at the NFL level. You can't trust him right now on the field on running reps.

Try this...

Forget thinking about him as an in-line or move type blocker.  Think about him in the Lazard, Big Slot, role.  Can he track or hunt guys down and wall them off?  Then can he do that and have the agility to slip out for a route?

I feel like Kraft is the in-line TE, Musgrave will be more of a big slot and split out wide TE/WR.

Does that change anything for you?  I'm curious, because I simply haven't watched him and do not know.  But that role is open in this offense.  And I simply do not want Watson doing that, or Doubs.  And Reed isn't heavy enough to do that well right now.

[incognito_man]

23 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

Try this...

Forget thinking about him as an in-line or move type blocker.  Think about him in the Lazard, Big Slot, role.  Can he track or hunt guys down and wall them off?  Then can he do that and have the agility to slip out for a route?

I feel like Kraft is the in-line TE, Musgrave will be more of a big slot and split out wide TE/WR.

Does that change anything for you?  I'm curious, because I simply haven't watched him and do not know.  But that role is open in this offense.  And I simply do not want Watson doing that, or Doubs.  And Reed isn't heavy enough to do that well right now.

Not really. He's downright awful at finding a guy to block in space. It's almost comically bad at times. He looks like a 6'6" 250 monster with the effective strength of a 10yr old girl. I can't quite figure out what the issue is, but Lazard is 10x the blocker Musgrave is.

If there's a guy right in front of him and he can square him up, he's occasionally effective at getting in the way. Legitimately, the best thing he does as a blocker is get in the way sometimes.

Edited May 4, 2023 by incognito_man

[Leader]

1 hour ago, ThatJerkDave said:

The issue is that he doesn't run a lot more.  For a guy as big as he is, he is tackled extremely easily.  Just watch his highlight reel.  You see a guy run a very good route, he is fast, and big, and catches the ball perfectly.  Then, a corner recovers and stops him dead in his tracks.  Most TE highlight videos have at least one really funny scrum after catch when they drag 3 or 4 guys for an extra few yards.  One Musgrave highlight video that I watched had him stopped short of a first down by a defensive back, twice.  It is possible that we drafted a really big slot WR.  

Not to call him a bust immediately, but there is a lot of work to be done here.  

Okay.....so dont get any YAC.....thats okay, so long as he's not The Dink & Dunk Champion.
I think he'll do fine and look forward to actually having a weapon in our TE arsenal again.

[R T]

This guy has some young Jimmy Graham to his game. 

[incognito_man]

3 minutes ago, R T said:

This guy has some young Jimmy Graham to his game. 

I know nothing about how Jimmy blocked at Miami, but this is a pretty good receiving comparison. I'd say that Musgrave is even smoother and sharper on his routes in college though. Musgrave has some elite movement skills, no question about it. 

[Packerraymond]

2 hours ago, incognito_man said:

Just watched both his cutups again.

+silky smooth in and out of his route breaks, especially at size

+soft hands catching the ball

-soft hands blocking defender (it's legit like his hands have opposing magnets on them whenever they touch a defender. It's uncanny how often he just drops his hands after contact)

-strength. Especially core strength I think. He's already an older prospect, but he has God awful form trying to stick with a block, especially in space. Lunges and falls over himself. Consistently out-muscled

I dunno. High bust potential here. If he was a really young guy I'd feel better about this, but there's no reason he should be THAT bad at blocking vs Fresno and Boise St defenders as a 23yr old. He's gonna get his *** absolutely handed to him in the NFL trying to block. Might be adequate vs DBs blocking in the slot on WR screens, and is adequate about getting in position on reach blocks because of his foot speed. But what little effectiveness he has as a blocker ends after 1.5 seconds or less of engagement. I'd consider bringing back Lewis and paying him double to be Musgrave's personal blocking coach. If he ever becomes AVERAGE as a blocker, he could be a valuable TE. But right now he's a taller slot WR who is a below average blocker even for an NFL WR. Love the receiving upside, but he's gonna absolutely kill you in the running game at the NFL level. You can't trust him right now on the field on running reps.

I thought he blocked at an average rate for a clear receiving TE at the next level. He walked off a defender for a TD run in the Boise St game, blocked a DE 1v1 a few times in both those games as well. No movement, but he's never going to be asked to be anything more than a "in the way" guy. Can you keep a guy flowing the same direction on the front side of zone? Can you wall him off on the backside? I think he can. Tonyan wasn't much better than this guy, and he already blocks at or better than Tyler Davis. 

 

[skibrett15]

Guy has gazelle legs 10-30 yards down the field.

 

Travis. Kelce.  Separation TE who can go up and get it if necessary

[incognito_man]

6 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

I thought he blocked at an average rate for a clear receiving TE at the next level. He walked off a defender for a TD run in the Boise St game, blocked a DE 1v1 a few times in both those games as well. No movement, but he's never going to be asked to be anything more than a "in the way" guy. Can you keep a guy flowing the same direction on the front side of zone? Can you wall him off on the backside? I think he can. Tonyan wasn't much better than this guy, and he already blocks at or better than Tyler Davis. 

 

It's entirely likely I have outsized expectations on TE blocking. I really only paid attention to Mayer and Washington in this class (and later, Kraft). I came away thinking Musgrave is hilariously bad from a physical POV compared to those three at least. I also think Toddler Davis is atrocious in that regard. Musgrave reminded me a bit of him, actually. I haven't focused on Tonyan before so have nothing to offer there.

[incognito_man]

1 minute ago, skibrett15 said:

Guy has gazelle legs 10-30 yards down the field.

 

Travis. Kelce.  Separation TE who can go up and get it if necessary

That's the trade-off. Seam and sideline chunk plays (with no-contact YAC ability) in exchange for elevated risk of negative rushing plays if you draw up a run while he's on the field.

[{Family Ghost}]

1 minute ago, skibrett15 said:

Guy has gazelle legs 10-30 yards down the field.

 

Travis. Kelce.  Separation TE who can go up and get it if necessary

I like that part of his game .. he's a mismatch, but he needs to learn how to secure the ball with one arm and smack the crap out of defenders with the free arm.  Kid has absolutely no clue how to do that and it seems like simple football 101.  Until he learns to do that he's just a big softy.