Baltimore V Bills Who Wins?

[43M]

3 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

Another great idea would be to understand the concept of Cherry Picking.

You omitted Flacco's first two seasons in your little write up.

Seriously, you keep digging that hole even deeper every time you type.

3 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

I compared the entire careers in Baltimore of both players.

Really?

Remember writing this....

Quote

Either way from 2010 to 2014 Flacco did this in the playoffs:

(Omitted 2008 and 2009)

Pepperidge Farm Remembers...

3 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

If it hurts your feelings that we can't travel 10 years into the future then you will just have to be sad.

Doesnt hurt my feelings at all.  

I just consider all the facts and put things into perspective.  

You should try it sometime.  

[SkippyX]

3 minutes ago, 43M said:

You omitted Flacco's first two seasons in your little write up.

Seriously, you keep digging that hole even deeper every time you type.

Really?

Remember writing this....

(Omitted 2008 and 2009)

Pepperidge Farm Remembers...

Doesnt hurt my feelings at all.  

I just consider all the facts and put things into perspective.  

You should try it sometime.  

Read the whole post.

I covered the early Flacco playoffs and compared them to Lamar's playoffs. Its in there.

I used words though, so you might have a problem with comprehension.

 

The point (to which you still are clearly oblivious) is that you implied the Ravens QBs before Lamar were terrible and even thinking about trying to get another QB would obviously spell doom for the franchise.

It was stupid then. It is stupid now. It will be stupid 5 years from now.

[Manny/Patrick]

1 hour ago, Trentwannabe said:

This is what Bills Mafia actually is. We've been doing things like this for a while. 

 

If I kidnapped Mahomes before next Sunday, would they pay for my bond?

[diamondbull424]

1 hour ago, DontTazeMeBro said:

I really hate to say this. But do we trust Harbaugh to choose a new OC? Other than Kubiak he’s screwed that up over and over again. It should be remembered that he was a dead man walking before Jackson saved him.

Do I trust him? Not really, but his job is tied to Lamar’s development IMO. Lamar has one more QB friendly deal left on it, thus this needs to be a huge offseason for both him and Harbaugh... for exactly the reason you’re alluding to.

Harbaugh was indeed a dead man walking and if Jackson regresses next season, Harbaugh/his staff will have failed to properly develop two franchise QB options on their rookie deals and that, would IMO have to be the death knell. Harbaugh’s a good coach that establishes a good environment for players, but he rightfully shouldn’t survive another year with these pass game limitations.

People can blame Lamar all they want, but when you’ve only had ONE QB season with 4000 yards passing during his entire tenure (2008-2021), that’s not a QB problem, that’s an infrastructure problem. When Greg Roman in his entire tenure as an OC has failed to ever produce a 4000 yd passer, that’s not a QB problem, but an infrastructure problem.

[Superman(DH23)]

My plan w/ Lamar would be this, figure out what the 5th year option would be, plus 2 years franchise tag, and offer him a 4 year ext at that price.   Otherwise, that's exactly what I would do, 5th year option + franchise + franchise.  Returns are already diminishing, it's likely to only continue to diminish, in this offense.  I would bring in an OC from the shanny tree who can marriage the run game w/ the pass game.  If the offense and the pass game gets better by the end of the 5th year, then you revisit the extension.  If not then you get the next 2 years to work on replacing him.  You cant win in playoff conditions unless you can run AND pass efficiently.  This is now 3 out of 4 playoff games where LJ hasnt looked like an efficient QB.  You have to start acknowledging why.

[diamondbull424]

2 hours ago, Broncofan said:

 

 

IMO you have to remove the OC tag from Roman completely.   His complete lack of adaptability both pre-game and in-game is a MASSIVE liability.

It's one thing to say he doesn't design pass plays well, or at all.   But in-game his struggles are in every facet of the game calling portfolio.   He literally can't adjust his run game to what the D is doing.    LAC used 7-DB's 2 years ago.  BUF sniffed out the QB sweep and RB dive plays as Roman's go-to plays.  And he didn't adapt.   If he had gone to more RPO's with QB inside runs and RB outside (with a pass option) - that had BUF completely stymied in the first 2 drives along with the RB dives and Lamar outside runs.  Yet once BUF sniffed out the QB sweep and RB dives - I don't think I saw a single RPO with Lamar running inside in the 2H.

Roman can install a run O.  He can design changes in the offseason.   Those are the 2 things he's great at.  He has literally no business being in the booth calling plays.  The dude cannot adapt.  It's painful to watch (although not if you're a Charger/Titan fan from years gone by, or a KC/BUF fan this year).

I’ll come back with the like once I’m reupped.

But agreed. I’ve been taking flak from some Ravens fans for this opinion for most of the season. Like people literally gave this dude credit for FINALLY fixing the run game that was broken early in the season. He fixed it not due to some sort of osmosis on his part, but fixed it BECAUSE Nick Boyle went down and he was forced to switch from the 22 personnel that we hadn’t been able to run effectively out of all season to more 3 WR sets. That gave Lamar more options to target in the passing attack to exploit over-aggressive defenses... and it also spread them out so that when they covered well, he could easily scramble for 10-15 yards here and there.

That and switching from Ingram to Dobbins is what led to our offensive explosion in the second half of the season, I had been calling for us to do these things since last offseason. That it was a clear progression the offense needed to take for Lamar.

It took Roman literally being FORCED to adjust, for him to actually adjust. Couple that with what you mentioned about Roman’s playoff performances and he’s held this offense back all season and especially in the biggest games. Maybe some of the other Ravens fans will finally come on the fire Roman track.

... well, actually that doesn’t really matter... hopefully Steve Smith, Kurt Warner, and Dan Orlovsky’s scathing comments about Roman’s offense keep coming, so that he can get fired or demoted (if he chooses to accept that). Doesn’t matter what the rest of the fans think... only that the organization does the right thing by Lamar before he’s completely screwed. It’s painful to watch us screw up another franchise QB after doing it with Joe Flacco via Cam Cameron.

[Broncofan]

26 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

I’ll come back with the like once I’m reupped.

But agreed. I’ve been taking flak from some Ravens fans for this opinion for most of the season. Like people literally gave this dude credit for FINALLY fixing the run game that was broken early in the season. He fixed it not due to some sort of osmosis on his part, but fixed it BECAUSE Nick Boyle went down and he was forced to switch from the 22 personnel that we hadn’t been able to run effectively out of all season to more 3 WR sets. That gave Lamar more options to target in the passing attack to exploit over-aggressive defenses... and it also spread them out so that when they covered well, he could easily scramble for 10-15 yards here and there.

That and switching from Ingram to Dobbins is what led to our offensive explosion in the second half of the season, I had been calling for us to do these things since last offseason. That it was a clear progression the offense needed to take for Lamar.

It took Roman literally being FORCED to adjust, for him to actually adjust. Couple that with what you mentioned about Roman’s playoff performances and he’s held this offense back all season and especially in the biggest games. Maybe some of the other Ravens fans will finally come on the fire Roman track.

... well, actually that doesn’t really matter... hopefully Steve Smith, Kurt Warner, and Dan Orlovsky’s scathing comments about Roman’s offense keep coming, so that he can get fired or demoted (if he chooses to accept that). Doesn’t matter what the rest of the fans think... only that the organization does the right thing by Lamar before he’s completely screwed. It’s painful to watch us screw up another franchise QB after doing it with Joe Flacco via Cam Cameron.

If the Chargers could fire Anthony Lynn after he won 4 games in a row to end the season, then an org like the Ravens might realize how much Roman as OC caps their O ceiling.   I wouldn't dismiss what Roman does as a system designer - to me, that's probably where he's best suited.   Maybe he won't accept that role (or maybe it doesn't pay as much) - but that's his niche, not as overall OC.   Just like how some great OC/DC's can't make the jump to HC, Roman IMO can't make the jump to OC, at least not in this era.   The thing that shows this in spades is his complete lack of adaptability in-game.   I don't know how that can be argued.

[diamondbull424]

7 minutes ago, Superman(DH23) said:

My plan w/ Lamar would be this, figure out what the 5th year option would be, plus 2 years franchise tag, and offer him a 4 year ext at that price.   Otherwise, that's exactly what I would do, 5th year option + franchise + franchise.  Returns are already diminishing, it's likely to only continue to diminish, in this offense.  I would bring in an OC from the shanny tree who can marriage the run game w/ the pass game.  If the offense and the pass game gets better by the end of the 5th year, then you revisit the extension.  If not then you get the next 2 years to work on replacing him.  You cant win in playoff conditions unless you can run AND pass efficiently.  This is now 3 out of 4 playoff games where LJ hasnt looked like an efficient QB.  You have to start acknowledging why.

Lamar had three bad pass plays, two of which were due to his lack of arm talent to deal with 25 mph wind gusts. Those were the pass to Andrews that fell just short and the pass to Hollywood on the play before the touchdown that fell short. Both of which he was throwing off platform due to pressure getting home. He doesn’t have the arm talent to throw in those conditions in off platform scenarios. The pass in the red zone was a terrible read, but almost every QB has made a play like that in their career and been burned. Not everyone of them has had it lead to a pick 6 however. Generally an OL or a RB or someone is there to tackle the guy for taking the ball out of the endzone with congestion around him. Usually that play doesn’t end up being the full death knell. However, that play is still indefensible.

The rest of the issue however is the route concepts and personnel packages. Look at the All-22 and the offensive splits. Roman is the biggest reason for the cratering offensive performances in the playoffs because his scheme is so rudimentary and he doesn’t adjust well.

What’s more... this same guy is responsible for developing the cerebral qualities of your QB. So if he doesn’t know how to develop a route plan that makes sense, how is going to properly develop Lamar in the mental capacities of the game.

[Superman(DH23)]

4 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Lamar had three bad pass plays, two of which were due to his lack of arm talent to deal with 25 mph wind gusts. Those were the pass to Andrews that fell just short and the pass to Hollywood on the play before the touchdown that fell short. Both of which he was throwing off platform due to pressure getting home. He doesn’t have the arm talent to throw in those conditions in off platform scenarios. The pass in the red zone was a terrible read, but almost every QB has made a play like that in their career and been burned. Not everyone of them has had it lead to a pick 6 however. Generally an OL or a RB or someone is there to tackle the guy for taking the ball out of the endzone with congestion around him. Usually that play doesn’t end up being the full death knell. However, that play is still indefensible.

The rest of the issue however is the route concepts and personnel packages. Look at the All-22 and the offensive splits. Roman is the biggest reason for the cratering offensive performances in the playoffs because his scheme is so rudimentary and he doesn’t adjust well.

What’s more... this same guy is responsible for developing the cerebral qualities of your QB. So if he doesn’t know how to develop a route plan that makes sense, how is going to properly develop Lamar in the mental capacities of the game.

Roman was the right guy to bring in to design an offense for Lamar, but I agree that the pass game he calls doesnt do Lamar any favors.  That's why I think you bring in a shanny guy who knows how to use the run to help the pass and vice versa.  If they do that and Lamar still doesnt improve his passing, then you know where the problem lies.  Oh and Lamar isnt Chad Pennington out there, he has more than enough arm talent to play effective even in windy conditions.  

[diamondbull424]

4 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

If the Chargers could fire Anthony Lynn after he won 4 games in a row to end the season, then an org like the Ravens might realize how much Roman as OC caps their O ceiling.   I wouldn't dismiss what Roman does as a system designer - to me, that's probably where he's best suited.   Maybe he won't accept that role (or maybe it doesn't pay as much) - but that's his niche, not as overall OC.   Just like how some great OC/DC's can't make the jump to HC, Roman IMO can't make the jump to OC, at least not in this era.   The thing that shows this in spades is his complete lack of adaptability in-game.   I don't know how that can be argued.

On the note of Roman as a system designer, I think he actually wouldn’t make for a bad CEO style HC. Where he has his guys that are in control of their side of the field and he can just offer some inputs here and there, but mainly just build systems for the environment within the locker room. But he’s just not someone you want designing a passing game nor calling plays, like you said.

... in terms of the organization moving on, maybe? I hope you’re right and they move on. Perhaps we won’t know for a week as they take a few days to calm down and make plans as an organization. I’m sure Harbaugh will also need to open up his coaching Rolodex as well.
——

The other problem is the OL probably has more components within it that operate best within a gap scheme. Most of the top offensive minds in the Shanahan tree are ZBS guys. For instance, I would look towards the Vikings QB coach Klint Kubiak and perhaps see about moving him over to be our offensive coordinator, but I’m not sure how these OL pieces would look if asked to transition back over to that scheme.

Perhaps the solution is someone from the Andy Reid tree, but we’ve got guys like that on staff, so unless Roman has simply decided not to implement their ideas (due to coach ego), than I’m not sure if we can even promote the minds from within- such as a James Urban or David Culley.
——

Figuring all those particulars out however is above my pay grade, but it’s certainly a quandary.

[diamondbull424]

7 minutes ago, Superman(DH23) said:

Roman was the right guy to bring in to design an offense for Lamar, but I agree that the pass game he calls doesnt do Lamar any favors.  That's why I think you bring in a shanny guy who knows how to use the run to help the pass and vice versa.  If they do that and Lamar still doesnt improve his passing, then you know where the problem lies.  Oh and Lamar isnt Chad Pennington out there, he has more than enough arm talent to play effective even in windy conditions.  

See this is where I disagree. People have brought this “design an offense for Lamar” stuff up and I’ve been pushing back from the beginning. Lamar won a Heisman in college with an offense that constantly went 4 WR, 1 TE because it was designed to spread the defense out, allow Lamar to dink and dunk it up the field, and take the occasional deep shots, while simultaneously keep them from keying in on him. If you tried to blitz him, either he had multiple checkdown routes OR he could scramble for huge gains.

Whereas Roman condenses bodies and put more guys in the middle of the field, hoping to take advantage of Lamar’s speed to the edge of the defense. Can Lamar run such a system to perfection, absolutely, but is it ideal for Lamar? No. Because as it’s not developing his QB skills. What’s more once teams figured out to use speed on the edges and force the Ravens to run up the middle, Roman adjusted by sending LAMAR UP THE MIDDLE. Now the counterbash has been successful, but that’s not a read play. They were running read plays up the middle and putting Lamar into situations with guaranteed contact. That’s not ideal for Lamar’s growth as a QB nor his protection.

What’s ideal for Lamar is a scheme built around 11 and 12 personnel packages that can scheme receivers open for easy windows of completion. Lamar in a Shanahan or Payton offense would be most ideal. He can make the schemed throws, he can make your regular reads when their is a logical route progression- as he showed at Louisville as a very young player that developed his vision each year there, he can heighten the rushing attack’s efficiency, and it would all coalesce to an overall impactful offensive attack that risks him far less with hits up the middle.

That’s an ideal offense designed around Lamar’s skillset, Lamar is an elite talent that can make this system look good, that doesn’t mean it’s the best offense for him to thrive in the NFL.

[Billy86]

Wrong thread 

Edited January 17, 2021 by Billy86

[DontTazeMeBro]

I’m not conceding that Jackson is a regular season QB. But let’s go with that for a second. This is why you stay with him. Because sometimes you play Chad Henne in the conference championship. If you’re in the playoffs every year you have a better chance of everything falling into place for you one year than just moving on and hoping the guy you draft turns out to be one of the handful of elite.

[sledgehammer]

4 hours ago, DannyB said:

He had a strong arm. He could throw a football very far. I one hundred percent do NOT equate that to having a "great" arm.

Gotcha. 

[DannyB]

38 minutes ago, DontTazeMeBro said:

I’m not conceding that Jackson is a regular season QB. But let’s go with that for a second. This is why you stay with him. Because sometimes you play Chad Henne in the conference championship. If you’re in the playoffs every year you have a better chance of everything falling into place for you one year than just moving on and hoping the guy you draft turns out to be one of the handful of elite.

Gotta get there to have a chance.

Hell, Peyton Manning sucked in the postseason and he fell a.ss over teakettle into two rings.

Edited January 17, 2021 by DannyB